Gambling With an Edge - guests Tommy Hyland & John C.

Our guests this week are Tommy Hyland, and John Chang, on to talk about blackjack teams. Tommy runs the Hyland team, one of the longest running and most successful teams of all time. You can read about him in Gambling Wizards. (Shameless plug) John ran the MIT team and you can read more about him here. Interview.

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Show Notes

[1:00, ]: show introduction (questions for guests)

[2:03, ]: introduce guests

[2:15, ]: How do you recruit new members?

[4:05, ]: What percent of players that expressed interest actually followed through?

[5:13, ]: How do you evaluate member skill?

[6:21, ]: What was the testing process for new counters?

[9:35, ]: Accuracy of the movie 21- checkout process.

[10:58, ]: how do you split profits in a team (managers, investors, scouts, players, etc),

AND… how did that evolve over time?

[18:21, ]: what did management end up with?

[18:40, ]: how were comps treated w/r/t team compensation?

[24:30, ]: how did you deal with barrings?

[27:30, ]: [how] has the game, esp w/r/t barrings/backoffs, changed for teams since the advent of player lawyers such as BobN?

[30:58, ]: how do you detect and handle dishonest players when managing a team? did you use polygraphs ever?

[37:59, ]: do you require that everybody on the team have investment in the bankroll?

[40:41, ]: how do you deal with players that play sub-par games because they’re afraid of heat?

~42:00 VARIANCE ANALYSIS METHOD

[46:35, ]: do you two (Tommy, John) still play yourself?

[48:50, ]: do you allow players to play games on the side (such as poker) while on team trips?

[51:45, ]: in the event that a player is robbed, how would you handle that?

Forming a team - part 1

There has been a lot of chatter on the blackjack boards recently about new teams forming. I wanted to take this opportunity to pass on some of my thoughts on teams. I have played on 5 or 6 teams over my career, and what I mean by a team is a group of players who have a shared bankroll, and a target they must hit before they break that bank. The target can be either a monetary win, or it can be a fixed number of hours, weeks, or months. When the target is hit the bank breaks, money is distributed, and a new bank is formed.

Before I get into it I want to say that it has been over 20 years since I played on a large team, and 15 since I played on a small one. Now I have partnerships. The difference is that I now have a handful of partners. 2 or 3 of us will get together for a short trip, maybe 2-7 days. We play together for that trip and split the money equally. No commitment, no muss, no fuss. We are all together so we know exactly what games we are playing, and how much we are betting. On my last large team, when we finished we had money on 4 continents in 6 currencies. It was like working for a large corporation. In other words, it was like a job. Teams are great for guys with short bankrolls. It is a chance to grow your BR, see the world, and meet other professional players. But I much prefer the way I do it now.

I am going to lay out some of the problems that I have encountered

Gambling With an Edge - guest Andy Bloch

The guest on the show this week is Andy Bloch. Andy is a very well known professional poker player, and a former member of the MIT blackjack team.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Mike Aponte of the MIT blackjack team

This week our guest is Mike Aponte, former member of the MIT blackjack team featured in the movie 21, and the book, Bringing Down the House.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest John Chang

This week's guest is John Chang, head of the famous MIT blackjack team featured in the movie 21, and the book Bringing Down the House.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Nathaniel Tilton

Our guest tonight is Nathaniel Tilton, author of The Blackjack Life. You can read my review of his book here. Review.

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The Blackjack Life book review

I am always eager to read new gambling books, especially books about blackjack, so I was happy to see the new release The Blackjack Life by Nathaniel Tilton. The book chronicles the blackjack life of Nathaniel who is the epitome of the modern card counter.  These are the players that got hooked on blackjack from reading Ben Mezrich's book, Bringing Down the House , or seeing 21, the movie taken from Mezrich's book.   Nathaniel gets hooked on Mezrich's tale of the MIT blackjack team, and the follow-up book, Busting Vegas . He decided to pony up $500 for a blackjack class led by Semyon Dukach. Semyon is the Ken Uston of the last decade, meaning that he aspires to be the world's most famous blackjack player. At the class  Nathaniel meets D,A. his future partner. The class sinks the hook deeper, and  Nathaniel and D.A. begin their training. They meet frequently to slog their way through learning basic strategy, then to count, how to adjust for the true count, bet sizing, and on and on all with a serious commitment to excellence.

I have met two kinds of card counters over my career.  I will call them Alan and Peter. When I first moved to Vegas I met Alan, a counter from Australia, who also happened to play backgammon.  At the time Alan had a medium sized blackjack team, and I, and two of my backgammon friends were playing on our own for nickles. After about a week of daily backgammon parties in a suite at the DI where we ate lots of comped room service Alan offered to bankroll the 3 of us to play blackjack for higher stakes.  But first we had to pass a test. A few days later we met for the test, and the only one who did not pass it was Alan. Alan's feeling was - as long as you bet more money with an advantage, that was all that was important. Years later friends would joke that when a Quantas jet would land from Australia people would line up outside the plane yelling, "1 and 1 is 2," and Alan would step out and yell, "You're hired!"

Peter was the opposite of Alan.  At this time Peter also had a medium sized team, and both teams would often get together to party. At one of these parties Peter was having a heated argument with one of his players, Malcolm.  Peter had been watching Malcolm play at Caesars.  They were betting a $250 unit, and Malcolm had bet $425 with a running count of 6 with 2 1/4 decks left, and Peter was arguing that he should have bet $400. Their bankroll was over $100,000, and they were arguing over a $25 difference in a wager!

I would say that  Nathaniel, and D.A. definitely would fall into the "Peter" school of thought. There is nothing wrong with this, it is just a difference in personality type.  The really important thing is that you know which of these types you are. Do not team up with the opposite type.  You will drive each other nuts. An example of this would be when Peter teamed up with Ken Uston in Atlantic City.  You can read more about Alan and Peter in Gambling Wizards.

Nathaniel and D.A. appear to be a perfect fit.  They put in long hours, and a lot of effort, and became really good card counters. They used a combined set of techniques, wonging, big player call in, gorilla BP, and started winning money.  Anyone who has counted in a serious way will recognize many of the pitfalls and mistakes they run into:

• team mates that are not as competent
• team mates that are obnoxious and may have stolen from them
• They get barred when  Nathaniel sees what he is sure is heat, but doesn't pull the play because he doesn't want to seem paranoid, and doesn't want his partner to think he is a wimp.
• Dating a pit boss and having that awkward situation of lying about what you do. (Or dating a dealer who calls you Bob when your name is Richard, and keeps asking you about that import business you told a boss you own. Really honey, it was years before I met you.)

They persevere, and are successful, but eventually it all take a toll. They find that making money counting cards is an incredible grind, and eventually decide to give it up.  And just like Michael Corleone, "Just when I thought I was out..."  It is really hard to stay away. Trust me. My first retirement from blackjack was in 1983.

This is a really good book for someone learning to count cards.  It doesn't teach you how to count, but it will teach you exactly what to expect from the counting life.

Gambling With an Edge - guest Laurie C.

Our guest this week is Laurie C. long-time member of the MIT Blackjack team, and wife of Johnny C. who ran the MIT team.  We talk about counting cards, the movie 21, and the advantages of being a
Chinese woman in the casinos.

Laurie C. podcast

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