Gambling With an Edge - Throwback episode Kelly Sun

This is a throwback episode originally recorded in 2017. Our guest this week is Kelly Sun. The media dubbed her the "Queen of Sorts," and her team mates called her a "baccarat machine." You know her as the mysterious Chinese woman behind the Phil Ivey edge sorting cases in London, and Atlantic City. Also on this show is Michael Kaplan, who has written about Kelly for the NY Times, and Cigar Aficionado, and Lori Chang.  Lori is a former member of the MIT blackjack team, and friend of Kelly. Kelly sometimes has trouble with English, and Lori came along to help translate, and share a few stories of her own. 

We welcome your questions - send them to us at gamblingwithanedge@gmail.com, or you can find me at @RWM21 on Twitter or https://www.facebook.com/GamblingWithAnEdge.

Podcast - https://www.spreaker.com/user/7418966/ksuntb

Show Notes

[00:00]  Introduction

[02:35]  Edge sorting at baccarat

[03:44]  Kelly's backstory

[06:15]  Gemaco and other brands of cards

[08:22]  "The Macau way"

[09:20]  Automatic shufflers, reusing cards, mini baccarat, cards, and dealers

[14:33]  Edge sorting in blackjack

[16:14]  Developing the baccarat strategy

[19:39]  Playing in Las Vegas, playing with Phil Ivey

[25:30]  Playing in Macau

[27:28]  Foxwoods

[30:43]  Casinos taking freerolls

[32:00]  Don Johnson sees Kelly and Phil at The Borgata

[33:43]  Different rules in baccarat

[34:44]  Eddie stories

[38:51]  Funny stories about frugality

[43:04]  Commercials

[44:36]  Kelly's nicknames

[48:24]  Court cases in New Jersey and London

[50:35]  Playing video poker in Lake Tahoe

[52:26]  Edge sorting in baccarat versus blackjack

[53:43]  Exploiting stereotypes

[58:27]  Can Kelly still play?

Sponsored Links:

http://Unabated.com

http://VideoPoker.com/gwae

http://BlackjackApprenticeship.com

Books Referenced:

Tales from the Felt

http://store.blackjackapprenticeship.com/products/tales-from-the-felt-an-illustrated-anthology

Gambling With an Edge - guest attorney Stan Pietruska

 Our guest this week is Stan Pietruska.  Stan is an attorney in New Jersey.  We talk about the legalization of sports betting, online poker, and the Phil Ivey case.

We welcome your questions - send them to us at gamblingwithanedge@gmail.com, or you can find me at @RWM21 on Twitter or https://www.facebook.com/GamblingWithAnEdge.

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Show Notes

[00:00] Introduction of gambling attorney Stan Pietruska
[00:37] Dan’s background in gambling
[02:28] PAPSA
[04:33] Off-shore sites in the late 1990s
[07:21] UIGEA
[11:39] Why did some poker sites still allow U.S. players?
[13:30] Chris Christie
[19:50] Phil Ivey case
[27:35] Fanduel’s NFL pricing error
[31:01] Does Dan take gamblers’ civil rights cases in New Jersey?
[33:58] South Point August Casino Promotions - free gift promotions, email free play promotion for locals
[35:35] BlackjackApprenticeship.com - card counting training site and community with a member's forum, casino database and software tools
[36:08] VideoPoker.com/gwae - Free Pro Membership trial for GWAE listeners
[36:36] Live betting at William Hill and others
[38:56] Barring sports bettors in New Jersey
[40:37] Super Bowl streaker wager
[43:48] Caesars’ surveillance case
[46:43] Current state of online poker
[52:58] Recommended - Downton Abbey, Gosford Park, The Other Woman by Daniel Silva, Tales from the Pit by David Schwartz


Sponsored Links:
SouthPointCasino.com
BlackjackApprenticeship.com
VideoPoker.com/gwae


Tales from the Pit episode:
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gambling-with-an-edge/gambling-edge-week-3/


Recommended:
Downton Abbey Netflix.com/title/70213223
Gosford Park Amazon.com/Gosford-Park-Maggie-Smith/dp/B000I543SM

Tales From the Pit https://amzn.to/3j1mFKX

The Other Woman https://amzn.to/3f5KDTU

Gambling With an Edge - guest Bob Nersesian #17

The guest this week is Bob Nersesian. Bob is a frequent guest to the show, and always entertaining. Bob is the lawyer who advocates for the players against the casinos, and has successfully sued many Vegas casinos on the behalf of players. His new book is called The Law for Gamblers: A Player's Guide to Legal Survival in the Casino Environment. Today we discuss listener questions.

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Show Notes

[3:00] If you put the money into the machine, but allow someone else to hit the “deal” button on a slot machine, who gets the jackpot money? Does jurisdiction make a difference?

[8:24] What should the player above have done to protect his rights?

[10:33] A player was held against will and was photographed in an Indian casino for playing a holecarding game. The tribal police got involved, threatened to arrest the player and confiscated $60,000 in chips for refusing to show ID. What is a good way to handle a situation like this?

[12:56] Risks to consider when playing in an Indian casino and the parallels between Indian casinos and Internet casinos.

[15:54] Would Harrah’s Resorts SoCal, formerly Harrah’s Rincon Resort and Casino, apply the normal Harrah’s rules or the rules of the owners, the Rincon Band?

[16:51] How would AG Jefferey’s Session's reinstitution of civil forfeiture affect gamblers and tourists? 

[22:32] Casino’s change in attitude when the see a guy with a suitcase full of cash

[23:06] The tax implication of Slade v.s. Casesar’s for the Nevada residents. 

[27:38] Why Richard says, “hi" to high-rollers. 

[29:40] 4 laws that Nevada tourists unwittingly break and 1 legal thing that tourists mistakenly think is illegal. (Surprise: Can tourists legally smoke marijuana in Nevada?)

[36:54] 2 ways to change your SSN and what happens to the old SSN.

[38:10] Do markers disappear when you declare bankruptcy?

[40:23] A question regarding Pai-Gow Tiles from p.30 of Bob Nersesian’s book, The Law for Gamblers: A Legal Guide to the Casino Environment: For a group of Pai-Gow Tiles players, when does sharing their tile information among themselves become cheating? 

[51:29] How do other states see the legality of holecarding? 

Andy Bloch episode #1

Andy Bloch episode #2

Andy Bloch episode #3

[54:53] Bob Nersesian’s prediction of Phil Ivey’s appealing case in London.

[56:55] Assume a player had a valid ID, but not a SSN. Is not having a SSN a sufficient reason for the casino to not pay you if the cashout amount required filling out a CTR?

[1:01:39] How does Bob’s reputation as an attorney affect his legal process?

Gambling With an Edge - guest Michael Kaplan 2

Our guest this week is gambling writer Michael Kaplan. For my money Michael is the number one gambling writer today. Mainly we discuss two articles.

The Baccarat Machine This article is about Kelly Sun's exploits with Phil Ivey.  Together they won millions of dollars at baccarat using a technique called edge sorting.

How Advantage Players Game the System This article from the NY Times magazine tells the story of James Grosjean beating a craps game dealt with cards.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Kelly Sun - Queen of Sorts

Our guest this week is Kelly Sun. The media dubbed her the "Queen of Sorts," and her team mates called her a "baccarat machine." You know her as the mysterious Chinese woman behind the Phil Ivey edge sorting cases in London, and Atlantic City. Also on this show is Michael Kaplan, who has written about Kelly for the NY Times, and Cigar Aficionado, and Lori Chang.  Lori is a former member of the MIT blackjack team, and friend of Kelly. Kelly sometimes has trouble with English, and Lori came along to help translate, and share a few stories of her own. 
. 

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Gambling With an Edge - Blackjack Ball 2017

Our guests this week are Max Rubin, Don Johnson and Anthony Curtis. We discuss this year's Blackjack Ball.  The Blackjack Ball has been going on for 21 years, and is hosted by Max Rubin.  This year Don Johnson was voted into the Blackjack Hall of Fame, and Anthony Curtis won the skills competition. For more details on the Ball see Bob Dancer's article at Gambling With an Edge

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Bob Nersesian #16

The guest this week is Bob Nersesian. Bob is a frequent guest to the show, and always entertaining. Bob is the lawyer who advocates for the players against the casinos, and has successfully sued many Vegas casinos on the behalf of players. His new book is called The Law for Gamblers: A Player's Guide to Legal Survival in the Casino Environment. Today we discuss the Phil Ivey decision in Atlantic City and how this may effect other gamblers.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest poker pro "Limon"

This week's guest is Limon. He is a Los Angeles based poker pro and one of the hosts of Live at The Bike. You can find that show at liveatthebike.com. This show was a bit unusual in that while we were recording this for Gambling With an Edge, we were broadcasting live to Limon's audience at liveatthebike.com.  We did have some calls at the end of the show that were not included, mainly because Limon hung up on most of the callers for inane questions.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Don Johnson

The guest this week is Don Johnson. We talk to Don about his massive wins at blackjack, porn stars, horse racing, and Phil Ivey.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Anthony Curtis

Our guest this week is Anthony Curtis, publisher of The Las Vegas Advisor, and owner of Huntington Press books. This wee we discuss the changes going on with Gambling With an Edge, and the new website GamblingWithanEdge.com. We also discuss this article on Advantage Players in the NY Times - How Advantage Players Game The System, and this article from Deadspin on sports touts. 
How America’s Favorite Sports Betting Expert Turned A Sucker’s Game Into An Industry.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Willy Allison #2

This week's guest is Willy Allison, casino game protection consultant, trainer, and adviser. He is also the founder of the world Game Protection Conference. We talk to Willy about surveillance's role in protecting the casinos, and where the biggest threats lie.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest I. Nelson Rose #4

The guest this week is professor I. Nelson Rose, author of, Gaming Law in a Nutshell, and Blackjack and the Law.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Bob Nersesian #11

The guest this week is Bob Nersesian.  Bob is a frequent guest to the show, and always entertaining.  Bob is the lawyer who advocates for the players against the casinos, and has successfully sued many Vegas casinos on the behalf of players.  He is also the author of Beat the Players. This week we discuss the Phil Ivey decision in London, and asset forfeitures.

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Gambling With an Edge - guest Ken Adams

The guest this week is Ken Adams. Ken is a prolific writer about the gambling industry. You can read his work at cdcgamingreports.com. 

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The Phil Ivey case

For those not familiar with the Ivey case let me give you a brief recap. In August of 2012 Phil Ivey, and a partner named Cheung Yin Sun played Punto Banco at Crockfords in London. He won 7.7 million pounds over 2 days. (Spoiler alert - he was edge sorting.) Crockfords said they would wire him the money, and then stiffed him. He sued to get the money he won, and on October 8 the judge ruled that Crockfords did not have to pay because Ivey cheated.  A few facts about the case:

• The casino used new cards for each shoe. Ivey played 4 shoes before asking to keep the same cards. Since Ivey and his partner were not touching the cards the casino agreed.
• They were using a brand of cards called Angel. (Not Gemaco)
• Ivey asked that the casino use a machine to shuffle the cards.
• At the end of the first night's play Ivey asked if he could continue the next day with the same cards. 

Here are a few choice quotes from the judgement:

"There is a complete dearth of authority on cheating at common law, at least in the civil context. This is unsurprising. Although at common law gaming contracts were enforceable in principle, though sometimes not in practice on particular facts, section 18 of the Gaming Act 1845 provided that all contracts or agreements by way of gaming and wagering shall be null and void. No suit could therefore be raised by or against a party to a gaming contract alleged to have cheated. There is, therefore, no case law on what amounts to cheating."

"This is, as far as I know, the first case in which the question whether or not the conduct of a party to a gaming contract amounted to cheating has had to be determined in an English court."

"There is no commonly accepted view amongst those who play Punto Banco about whether edge-sorting does or does not amount to cheating. David Mills, a levelheaded and experienced English expert in casino gambling considers that it does. Towards the end of 2013 he conducted a survey amongst seven of the eight biggest casino operators in the UK. He found that four out of the seven considered that it was cheating and two out of seven considered it was not a legitimate practice. The remaining one considered that it was not cheating, nor illegitimate. Dr. Jacobson, to whom I have already referred, who has extensive experience in the USA of casino gambling both as a consultant to casinos and, between 1997 and 2005, as an advantage player himself, considers that it is not cheating. His informal survey, as he put it, of "hundreds of people" has provided the answer that the general but not universal view is that it is not cheating. I have not found these expressions of opinion to be helpful. Mr. Mills did not canvass gamblers and, as far as I can tell, Dr. Jacobson's survey was unsystematic. Neither establishes a generally accepted view."

RWM: Really? This is the way they approached this? The casino expert went and asked a bunch of casino operators what they think, and the other side did an informal survey of hundreds of people?

"Crockfords maintain that the claimant practised (sic) deception upon them by pretending to be superstitious when he was not, for example, by making a fuss over lucky Crockfords hats, which he and Ms Sun wore, and by asking for "lucky" cards and for a Chinese croupier on the ground that he got lucky when playing with Asian women."

I can go on, but below you can read the judgement for yourself. We will be discussing this with Ken Adams on tonight's Gambling With an Edge, and again next week with attorney Bob Nersesian.

 Ivey Judgement